• I believe I have seen interview transcripts in this case previously and that I commented on them, however, this was my first time seeing the interview CD's.
• I completed the analysis below based solely on the CD's themselves and without benefit of any transcripts.
• Had I seen these CD's prior to John Smith's trial, I would have strongly and immediately recommended that the CD's be sent to and evaluated by an expert who has the expertise and the experience to provide the Court with an opinion. Based on an expert's opinion, there are several motions the defense could have considered.
• I was not at trial when Mr. Smith was convicted, so I have no knowledge as to who actually testified and what that testimony would have consisted of. I can say that the forensic interviews of Paula and Lori would have provided a defense attorney with numerous and excellent questions that, if used properly, may have exposed problems to the jury. I say this simply based on the facts "not" covered and "not" addressed in the forensic interviews themselves.
• When I look at any outcry of a child alleging sexual abuse, I consider:
  • The age of the child. In this case, Paula is 5 years old and her sister, Lori is 7 years old.
  • Is the language the child uses consistent with their age? Is it age appropriate?
  • Is the child able to give a narrative regarding the abuse? A child who has been abused can easily give a narrative and especially if that child is 6 or 7 years old. They are able to do so because they are giving an account of something that actually happened to them. A child who is making a false allegation is not able to supply details to events that never happened, but they will try and normally, in a forensic interview, you will see the interviewer asking question after question, just to get the allegation out.
  • How the child responds to questions from the interviewer. If a young child believes in Santa and an adult tells that child there is no such thing, it is not abnormal for that child to respond immediately and irrationally just to make their point. For example, a child may yell, "Yes, there is a Santa." "I have talked to him and he let me ride in his sleigh." Simply put, the child is just trying to support their belief and may be willing to say anything to do that. As an example in this case, I have heard nothing that even indicates that John Smith has any history of molesting any child, yet Paula claims that he did it to her 4 times on the same day and never at any other time, and that he simply went straight to her vagina with his tongue and his fingers. Normally, a pedophile or a child molester's main goal is, "keeping what they do a secret." They do not want to be discovered, and considering that goal, they may:
    • Groom the child. That could amount to buying them presents, taking them places they want to go, being their best friend, building trust.
    • If a child molester desires to touch a young girl's vagina, they will usually test the waters, so-to-speak, to see what they can get away with. They may touch the child's arm to determine problems, complaints or resistence. If there is none, they may go to the child's back, then their legs. They are simply trying to find out what they can safely get away with. In this case, on 4 occasions, this adult male, who had no history of child abuse, simply stuck his tongue and finger into a 5-year old's vagina as she sat on a couch crying, and all of this in plain sight of her sister. Looking at the overall in that light, the allegations would not appear to be credible.
  • The facts surrounding the alleged abuse. Time, place, who was present, and facts as to what happened such as, how did it feel, what fight resistance did the child put up, etc. Many of those critical areas were never covered in the forensic interviews. The interviewer was very careful to have these girls give statements that showed they were intelligent for their age, yet she never asked "when did this happen?", "was it day or night?" Paula was asked, but Lori was not. I would think that at the very least, the interviews should have covered and answered:
    • Why didn't Paula ask her sister to help her?
    • Why didn't her sister call for help?
    • What did it feel like when Uncle John did what he was alleged to have done to Paula?
    • Why was Paula crying?
    • Why didn't Lori see Paula crying?
    • How far did he stick his finger in Paula?
    • How far did he stick his tongue in Paula?
    • How long did something go on for each of the 4 times?
    • What was the total time Uncle John was doing things to Paula?
• Now, despite what has been said above, the reality in this case is simply that a very cute 5-year old girl is making an allegation of sexual abuse and that allegation is supported by her 7-year old sister, so if any jury was going to acquit John Smith, they would have to be willing to look at these two adorable young girls and tell them that they think they are liars. That is one hard pill to swallow for many.
• From the State's standpoint, the argument would be that a child of Paula's age would be unable to make such an outcry unless it actually happened and a follow-up argument would be that Paula's allegation was supported by her 7-year old sister.

Paula Stewart Forensic Interview

• Her name is Paula. She is 5-years old and attends kindergarten at Ferguson School. Her favorite thing about kindergarten is reading books. She likes to read "Little Bears".
• When asked who she lives with, she responded, "I live with my Nanna."
• Her Nanna is Joyce Brown.
• When asked if anyone else lives with her and her Nanna, she said her Paw Paw and her mommy and daddy and her sister.
• Her Paw Paw's name is James Brown.
• Her mother is Gloria Stewart.
• Her daddy is Donald Stewart.
• Her sister is Lori Stewart. "She's 8, I think."
• When asked what she likes to do, she said spend the night with her friends, Abby, Carol and Peggy. She does not know where they live. Abby and Carol live together and Peggy lives somewhere else.
• She was able to say her A, B, C's in a poem like phrase as she constantly drew on a paper in front of her.
• She counted to 10 while still drawing on the paper in front of her.
• She was drawing the sun and a heart. The sun was yellow and the heart was red. She was then able to properly identify colors when the interviewer held up various marking pens she had.
• Her Daddy brought her to the interview and when asked who was up front, she said, "My Momma and my sister."
• When asked if anyone told her why she was coming there today, she continued drawing, looked down and shook her head yes, (as if ashamed) and said, "My Momma told me."
• When asked what her mother told her, she said, "You're going to tell what Uncle John did to you."
• When asked what Uncle John did, she continued looking at her drawing, closed the top on the marker she was using and "without fear" simply said, "He put his mouth on my vagina."
• The interviewer had her circle where Uncle John put his mouth on a drawing, then said, "And you call that your vaginya?" to which she nodded yes.
• She spelled her first and last name for the interviewer.
• She was asked if Uncle John had a first name and she said yes. When asked what it was, she hesitated, then said she could not remember.
• When asked what he did when he put his mouth on her vagina, her response was muffled, but it sounded like she said he stuck his tongue in there, then he stuck his finger in there.
• When asked where were her clothes when he did that, she said, "He pulled them down."
• When asked if he said anything to her when he did that, she looked up almost excitedly and said, "he told her that she better not say no."
• When asked if he said anything else, she clearly said, "No."
• This happened when she was at his house, spending the night with him.
• When asked if anyone lived with him, she said, "His daughter and his wife." She could not remember the daughter's name.
• His daughter is grown up. His wife is Aunt Brenda (Sounded like).
• When asked where they were, wife and daughter, when he did that to her, she said the Aunt and daughter were gone.
• When this happened, she was sitting in the living room. She was inside because Uncle John would not let them go out.
• He came in the living room and asked her if she wanted to do it. She said no, but he did it anyway.
• He put his tongue in her vagina and his finger. He did not put anything else in her vagina.
• When asked if he put his tongue in her vagina one time or more than one time, she said more than one time. The interviewer said, "Tell me about that." She said, "He did it 4 times." When she was asked if the 4 times were on the same day or different days, she responded, "The same day."
• It was day time when it happened.
• She was asked if he put his finger in her vagina one time or more than one time and she said more than one time. She was asked if it happened more than one time on the same day or different days. She said the same day.
• She was asked if she ever saw him put his tongue or his finger in anybody else's vagina and she said no.
• When asked if anyone saw him doing that to her she said yes, then no, then only her sister.
• Her sister was on the computer when he did that to her.
• She has not seen him do anything to her sister.
• Nobody has ever done anything like that to her before.
• He did not touch her anywhere else with his tongue or his finger.
• He never tried to make her do anything to him.
• His clothes were on. When asked what he was wearing, she immediately responded, "A blue shirt and blue jeans - then changed that to pants."
• She has never seen what he did to her on any books, magazines, computers or dvd's.
• The interviewer took a break and then returned and resumed questioning. After leaving the room, Paula continued drawing, but she laid her head down on the table where she was drawing on the paper and looked as if she was ashamed, or possibly just did not want to be there.
• When the interviewer came back in the room, she asked if anyone ever told her not to tell anything and she said, "Uncle John told her not to tell or she would get in trouble."
• Her Momma told her to tell it.
• The interviewer wanted to go back over several facts. She said Paula told her that she was in the living room on the couch when it happened. The interviewer asked what she was doing on the couch and she responded, "Crying."
• The interviewer asked if the TV or radio was on and Paula said, "TV."
• When asked what was on TV, Paula responded, "He put a dirty movie on."
• "He was copying the dirty movie."
• When she was asked what she saw on the dirty movie, Paula said, "I didn't see nothing."
• When she was asked how she knew it was a dirty movie, she said, "Because he put it in."
• He did not say anything when he put the movie in.
• Again, when asked how she knew it was a dirty movie, Paula stated, "Because he showed us the CD."
• When asked what she saw on the CD, she said, "A boy on top of a girl."
• When asked if the boy and girl had clothes on, off or something else, she said, "Off."
• The interviewer then asked her to clarify if she had seen the CD, the box the CD was in or the CD playing and she said the CD. He did not say anything about the CD or the movie he was copying.
• He showed the CD to her and her sister.
• She knew to tell her parents if anything like that ever happened to her again.

• During this interview, Paula's demeanor never really changes except when the interviewer leaves the room and Paula rests her head on the table she is drawing on. There simply was no change in this child's demeanor between spelling her name, saying her A,B,C's, counting, identifying colors or saying that her Uncle John put his mouth on her vagina.
• The wording used by Paula is somewhat troubling. What 5-year old child refers to her "private" as her vagina? She actually said "vaginya."
• I have concerns with the credibility of an allegation when a 5-year old child says, without hesitation:
  • I was sitting on the couch crying.
  • He stuck his tongue and his finger in my vagina.
  • He did it 4 times that same day.
• Adding to that difficulty:
  • Paula remembered that her uncle was wearing a blue shirt and blue pants.
  • Her sister saw all of this happen - Paula crying on the couch while her uncle molested her 4 times.
  • Her sister neither said nor did anything.
  • The uncle did nothing to her sister, Lori.
  • The statement that his clothes were on, he "pulled hers off."
  • The statement that he touched her only on her vagina and no place else.
  • That he did not try to have her touch him in any manner.
• Here is an adult male who is alleged to have suddenly pulled the clothes off a 5-year old, in plain sight of her sister, then sticks his tongue and his finger into her vagina 4 times as she sat on a couch crying. Based on this allegation, if true, John Smith simply wanted to get caught.
• Finally, consider the statements made specific to the CD. It was a dirty movie. She did not see it. Then she did. There was total confusion in her discussion of that event.
• Based on the overall interview, Paula's allegation does not appear to have credibility.

Lori Stewart Forensic Interview

• Her name is Lori. She is 7-years old. She used to go to Ferguson School, now she goes to Stanton School. She is in the second grade. Her favorite thing about second grade is math.
• She just started back to school from Christmas break.
• She lives with her mom, her dad and her sister. They live with her Nanna because they haven't gotten a house yet.
• Her Nanna's name is Joyce," her mom is Gloria, her dad is Donald and her sister is Paula.
• When she is not at school, she likes to go to her friend's house. Her friends are Carol and Abby. They are sisters and they live in the same house.
• When she goes to their house, they play in the bedroom with Barbie Dolls and coloring books.
• She has pets; 1 cat and 3 dogs and sometimes they poop on the floor.
• Her dog stays outside, but the other ones, little dogs, stay inside. One is blind.
• She helps take care of the pets by picking up their poop.
• Her mom and her dad were up front with her when the interviewer went to get her.
• Her mom and her dad told her why she was coming to the interview that day. "She said don't be scared because it wasn't your fault."
• When asked what wasn't her fault?, she said, "what her uncle did to her sister."
• When asked what her uncle did to her sister, she said, "He took her pants down and put his finger in it and put a dirty movie in it."
• When asked what her uncle's name was, she said some people call him Uncle John and some call him John Smith.
• When asked what he did when he pulled her sister's pants down, she said, "He started licking her thing." She calls the vagina a "thing."
• The interviewer had her spell her first and last name - Lori Stewart.
• She is 7-years old, almost 8.
• He touched her thing with his mouth.
• "He put a dirty movie in." "He started copying it."
• When asked about the dirty movie, she said that she was on the computer and didn't see it.
• When asked how she knew it was a dirty movie, she said, "Because he showed it to me." "It was on a tape." "It was on CD."
• When asked what she saw, she said, "A girl naked."
• He asked her if she wanted to watch it. She said no, and he did it anyway.
• The only other thing he touched her sister's thing with was his fingers.
• She was on the computer in his bedroom.
• She acknowledged that her sister was on the couch in the living room and that she saw him do those things to her sister.
• When she was asked if he knew that she had seen what he did to her sister, she said yes, then she said he did not say anything.
• He did not do anything to her. She has never seen him do anything like that to anyone else.
• Her uncle said not to tell anyone or they would get into trouble and her mother told her not to worry, it was not her fault.
• When asked if anyone had ever told you something, or done something and told you not to tell, she responded by shaking her head affirmatively. When asked who, she said, "My Momma."
• When asked what her momma said, she said, "She said, well my uncle said don't tell anybody or we were gonna get in trouble, and my Momma said don't worry, it wasn't your fault."
• When asked who lived with Uncle John, she said his wife, his daughter and his other daughter. His daughters are teenagers.
• She does not know where his wife or daughters were when he did that to her sister.
• Interviewer took a break and left the room.
• When she returned, she told Lori that she had said that she was in the bedroom on the computer and her sister was in the living room. When she asked Lori how was she able to see what was going on in the living room, Lori responded by leaning back and saying that was what she did to see.
• The follow-up question, "Where you were at, were you able to see into the living room?" to which Lori responded, "A little bit."
• Lori gave a good and detailed description of the bedroom, living room and how she was able to see, but in the explanation, she said she had to move her chair back to see what was going on in the living room.
• When asked if she knew what to do if anything like this ever happened again, she said, "No." The interviewer told her to tell a grown up.

• Clearly she said that she was on the computer in his bedroom and she acknowledged that her sister, Paula was on the couch in the living room.
• Initially, she said she leaned back in her chair and she could see what was happening to her sister. As questioning continued, then it became that she had to push her chair back from the computer to see.
• Lori claims that she pushed her chair back from the computer and watched as her Uncle John licked her sister's "thing." Now, consider this explanation and add to it Paula's allegation. Paula said she was crying on the couch and her Uncle John stuck his finger and his tongue into her vagina and further, that he did it 4 times that day. Obviously, during her interview, Lori was never asked how long she observed her sister being abused, but 4 times would be a long time for Lori to push her chair back and watch her sister crying and being molested without saying or doing something in her defense.
• Lori appears extremely nervous throughout the interview, but especially toward the end when she is leaning against the couch and constantly rubbing her legs up and down when being questioned as to:
  • Did he try to do any of those things to you?
  • Did he say anything? To you?
  • Did you see him do anything else to your sister?
  • Have you ever seen him do anything like that to anyone else?
  • Has he ever tried to do anything like that to you?
  • Has anybody ever tried to do anything like that to you?
  • Has anyone ever told you something or done something and told you not to tell?
• When finished discussing the above, she picked up a marker and began writing or drawing again on a paper on the table in front of her.

• Both girls were very nervous and acted as though they wanted to be anywhere else, which is perfectly normal. The State's argument would be they were embarrassed. This also happens when a child is telling something they have been instructed to tell and would rather not.
• There were not a lot of leading and suggestive questions asked that possibly could have tainted the interview or either child's memory, but there were many questions that should have been asked and addressed that were not.
• There was no real difference in emotion from either girl between discussions of school and discussions of being molested or in Lori's case, allegedly observing the molesting.
• Lori never said Paula was crying and that is not something she would have forgotten. So for this story to be truthful, Lori would have had to pushed her chair back and watched Uncle John molest her sister, who was crying on the couch, 4 times and again, that just does not seem practical.
• Paula was asked point blank if she ever saw anything pornographic wise in a book, a magazine or a CD and she said, "No." Then she came back and talked about the CD and the fact that it was a dirty movie. Both girls stumbled all over discussing the CD and that did appear to have been scripted as both girls said virtually the same thing, "which would have been impossible because they were in 2 different rooms."
• Both girls clearly made the same statement that Uncle John told them not to tell or they would get in trouble. Paula brought that out immediately. Lori had problems by first denying it and then coming right back with exactly the same terminology that her sister used which, again, could imply scripting and a child forgetting something they were supposed to have said.
• Was there a medical report in this case? Paula claimed that he put his tongue and finger in her 4 times that day.
• I am not saying that Paula was not molested, but I am saying that the interviews are suspect, simply based on the allegations themselves, but this would require a professional to study these interviews and provide an expert opinion. Based on what I have seen, I would recommend that next step.
• In reality, this does not normally reflect how child sexual abuse happens or how it is reported.
• In the above, it would have been critical for the trial defense attorney to know what the accusing children said prior to trial. If every sexual abuse allegation made was true and every forensic interview perfect, that would be one thing, but that is not the case and the defense needs to know what prior inconsistent statements, if any, have been made by the accusing child or children. It is also beneficial for the defense to know the demeanor of the child making the allegations at the time they were interviewed.
• In reality, there is no justifiable reason whatsoever for any State to refuse to allow a defendant to have a forensic interview of the person accusing them to be analyzed by a defense professional. As already stated, had the defense in the above case been allowed to have the forensic interviews properly and professionally analyzed, that finding could possibly have resulted in preventing a conviction for a crime never committed.
• If an accused finds themselves in a position of having the State deny the defense's expert access to the forensic interview tapes, I would hope their attorney would argue that refusal of the tapes would be a violation of the accused's constitutional rights. As a perfect example, long after Margaret Kelly Michaels was convicted in New Jersey, her sentence was overturned on a Petition for Writ of Habeas Corpus based on many issues, including the overall interview process. See New Jersey vs. Margaret Kelly Michaels, 136 N.J. 299, 642 A2d 1372 (June 13,1994).
• In closing, had an expert had access to the forensic interviews we have discussed in this case, it would have assisted the defense attorney in defending their client and providing those interviews would not have endangered either child. A defendant in a case as serious as a sexual abuse allegation should have the right to know if their accusers have made prior inconsistent statements, or if anything happened during the interview process that could have tainted the memory of the accuser.